STATUS: I feel like popping the cork on a bottle of champagne! Did I do some huge deal today or something? Nope. I finished negotiating a contract that was four months in the making. Normally contracts don’t take nearly that amount of time. This contract had some special circumstances but it’s done. I’m so really to celebrate that.
What’s playing on the iPod right now? LET’S STAY TOGETHER by Al Green
Yep. It’s all over the blogosphere. As much as we’ve tried, we just can’t kill the fee chargers that is the Sobol Award. There are at least a 1000 poor souls who paid up but obviously that wasn’t enough so the organizers in their beneficence (read: they didn’t get enough money first time around) extended the deadline from December of this year to March of 2007. Plenty of time to lighten the wallets of more unsuspecting writers.
I think POD-DY Mouth has the best take on it.
All I can say is that the contest creator Mr. Shomron must be some talker and Simon & Schuster deserves 50 lashes with a wet noodle for even getting involved.
I know! My jaw dropped when I saw that Simon and Schuster were involved in all this. What’s the world coming to?
Someone has to PLEASE explain to me why S&S would get involved in this.
I’m a working writer struggling for each contract. A writer with multiple published credits struggling to get an agent. All I hear/read about is how mass market ficiton is near death. How single title is a huge risk. One failure can ruin a career. How acquisition editors have to get universal consent before being able to offer a contract because it is a best seller or bust mentality.
And now S&S is going to offer a 100,000 advance on a book that they’re going to find in a contest where most informed professional writers realize it’s a crock?
Call me crazy… but I’m starting to think paying the $85 to frauds might be worth it. I can compete against 1000 writers for a $100,000 dollar advance. Or I can compete against 20,000 writers for a chance to get (if I’m extremely lucky) a 10,000 dollar advance.
Somebody please stop me… before I drink the sand.
Steph
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Everybody in publishing is dissing the Sobol contest. Not just dissing it, but vehemently dissing it. When I see this kind of “passion” it always makes me pause. From a writer’s perspective it looks like this contest is saying someone will actually READ YOUR BOOK. The way the “system” works now you can have a fine book that builds to a great conclusion, but if you’re an unknown, and if you don’t write a fantastic one-page query, and a fantastic first five pages–that’s read at the right time of day by the right intern in the right mood for an agent looking (right now) for your kind of book–you’ve got a salmon’s chance in a six inch pool full of grizzlys of making it.
Maybe, MAYBE, by bringing in outside readers (like librarians) who aren’t professionals with fixed viewpoints, Sobol is trying to get a fresh perspective. MAYBE the system so vehemently defended (controlled?) by
lit agents could stand some tinkering. MAYBE Simon & Schuster isn’t so dumb.
I will be shot at sunrise for suggesting this. Or, while I’m sleeping.
My problem with the Sobel Prize isn’t that librarians and authors and such are judging it. My problem is the $85 entry fee and other dubious things about the contest. This, in my mind, is a worse scam (not in terms of money spent, but in terms of how devious it is) than an agent who charges fees. With those agents, you at least get their “representation” before you have to spend money, but with the Sobel Prize, you’re paying $85 just for a CHANCE to be represented.
Anon,
You’re missing the point. I’d be just fine with the Sobol contest if they simply dropped their “entry” fee.
Then they could get on their high horse all they wanted about how they, and they alone, are helping poor unnoticed writers get the attention they deserve (and a book deal)by using an innovative new way of approaching publishing (don’t mind the snort in the background).
Just don’t lighten their wallets in the process.
As for costs associated with running this “contest”, there is such a thing as corporate sponsors if all they need to do is cover their “administrative” costs, which by my reckoning are minimal at best.
I, for one, will be interested to see if they actually pay out their promised prizes or fold when it’s clear that there will not be enough entries. And ultimately, will they refund that $85.00?
I’d hate to think book sales are down so low that S&S would have to reduce themselves to this.
And it’s not the contest people are bitching about, it’s the 85 buck fee. Five dollars is too much to spend to have God read a manuscript.
I can’t help but wonder how many people have actually entered this contest, and are terrified to admit it, on the grounds of false hope and thinking it will start a new trend in publishing. Because if it does start a new trend in publishing we’re all screwed, and better get ready to dig into our pockets. Things like this, no matter how hard it is to sell a book, only take more power away from the writer.
Sorry – but I’m uncertain why the charge is upsetting everyone. In the “contest” world – charging a fee is typical.
I just paid $65 dollars to enter the RITA (the romance industry’s most prestigous award). That’s paying money to have someone read and judge my book.
If I win that I get a gold statue and a congratulations.
I think I would rather have the $100,000 bucks.
Don’t get me wrong I get why this thing stinks of scam. The whole “you have to sign with us” when they’re not an agency with a track record reeks. But is there such a thing as outsmarting a fraud?
S&S IS GOING TO OFFER A BOOK DEAL! IF “that” and the money are legit – then where exactly is the harm to the winner?
What’s the difference between Sobol and The Kirkus Literary Award? Last year, Kirkus charged participants $150 last year, promising a publishing contract with Little Brown, and as far as we know, has yet to publish that manuscript.
This year, Kirkus offered a discount for early submissions, and now, the Kirkus Website announced the contest termination without explanation or an offer to refund the participants.
The literary watchdogs provide a valuable service. But why is Kirkus off limits? Is there a conflict of interest? Is it about “the scam” or is it about “who” scams?
Does anybody have a clue?
…$5 is too much to spend to have God read a manuscript…
Hmmm. I’ve spent $5 on five rejected or unanswered queries, and I’d bet you have as well. I’m with anon #3; why all the shrieking about the $85? I’d pay $85 to a good literary agent to read my novel from first to last page and make comments. I’d pay it in a heartbeat! (I’d pay another $85 if he/she would dare to tell me it’s not good, but I digress.) Obviously, there are lousy, disreputable agents out there ready to take my money, and they aren’t getting it. A librarian, now, at least is not in it for the money so you know the comments are objective, and maybe even heartfelt, by golly.
Anon #2
anonymous (9:21 am) asks if there is such a thing as outsmarting a fraud. Yes… by not falling for it.
S&S is just giving a scam the appearance of legitimacy. The whole Sobol setup continues to be what it always was, a lucrative money trap designed to benefit fraudulent “agents,” who’ve made $85,000 off entrants already. But that’s not enough, apparently. Hence the deadline extension Kristin mentioned in her post.
The 85 smackers is designed to weed out the lame. Everyone gets worked up about it, people jump onto the “IT’S A STINKING SCAM!” wagon, and the contest gets a bad rep.
People in a rush to get their work in the hands of an editor, or even just into the hands of a reader, will gladly fork over $85 to do so… the alternative is querying a hundred agents, spending money on postage and spiritual currency in prayer and hope. Querying a hundred agents can take a year or two, and after all that time can beat the hell out of a person emotionally.
I can see why this would bug agents. The concept of publishers coming up with new agentless ways of finding authors has got to stick in their collective craw. And imagine offering a hundred Gs to the winner, well in excess of any advance an agent might possibly land for a new author!
Going around the agents is doing an end-run on a now well-established gatekeeper. I applaud Simon & Shuster for thinking outside the box and trying to sumplify the process.
What would you rather do… spend two years sending out query after query, or spend a hundred bucks once or twice a year to guarantee that someone reads your entire manuscript? Be real, a lot of those submitted are going to suck. If you’ve got any real talent, your chances wouldn’t be that bad.
DA
Anonymous said…
…$5 is too much to spend to have God read a manuscript…
Hmmm. I’ve spent $5 on five rejected or unanswered queries, and I’d bet you have as well. I’m with anon #3; why all the shrieking about the $85? I’d pay $85 to a good literary agent to read my novel from first to last page and make comments. I’d pay it in a heartbeat! (I’d pay another $85 if he/she would dare to tell me it’s not good, but I digress.) Obviously, there are lousy, disreputable agents out there ready to take my money, and they aren’t getting it. A librarian, now, at least is not in it for the money so you know the comments are objective, and maybe even heartfelt, by golly.
Yes, I’ve spent five dollars, and more, on postage. Over the years, before publishing anything, I’ve also had agents read manuscripts for free and offer comments (they really do this…I’m not kidding anyone…if agents like what they see they ask for partials, and fulls, and read them and offer comments without charging a single dime…Good reputable agents, like Dystel and Goderich, Warren Frazier, the folks at Writer’s House…they really do read and request and comment on what interests them.)If a writer isn’t getting the response they want, then maybe it’s time to re-think the particular project. But you shouldn’t have to pay a dime to anyone. This is all about more than money…it’s about ethics and principles. If a book is good enough to win a contest like Sobel, than it should be good enough to attract an agent or publisher without having to pay a dime. Writer’s always seem to think agents disregard their queries, or treat them lightly. It’s so NOT true. They read everything, and I know this from experience. And if a writer can’t get a single response from an agent, at least accepting a partial, then how in the world could they win a contest they paid $85 to enter? It stands to reason.
Someone upthread of this comment said it pretty well, about preferring to compete for $100,000 with a thousand or so writers, rather than compete with 20,000 just to have your work read. I’ve heard that the going rate for a new writer (advance-wise) is ten grand if they’re lucky. Paying into a contest like this is like playing lotto, but with much better odds of winning.
If I were an agent I would hate this. Say this works for S&S, and they get a bestseller out of it. Then they do it again, and more writers get involved, and start rethinking their strategies to include participating in a contest a year rather than querying a dozen agents. The agents hate self-publishing, don’t they? That’s where that Paolini kid came from— his story is entirely agentless (I don’t know about now, after he’s become bigger than Christ) and now we can’t watch TV for ten minutes without seeing a commercial for his movie.
Rob
Ryan Field said… “If a book is good enough to win a contest like Sobel, than it should be good enough to attract an agent or publisher without having to pay a dime.”
Yep. That’s true. I do think talent will “eventually” win out.
But again – look at the numbers. Agents have routinely said they get about 100 queries a week. So that’s 5200 “books” a year for each agent. Obviously there are repeat submissions. But I think we can at least multiple 5200 by 10 to cover ALL the agents in the country to assume that there are at least 50,000 + books being written a year competeting for agents and editors.
So let’s say you’re *good* enough … instead of being good enough to beat 1000, 2000, or even 5000 you have to be good enough to beat out 50,000 (or at least show up somewhere in the top 100).
And if you win. If you’re really *good* you get an agent who takes 15% of the advance and an advance that will probabably range between 10-15K.
I agree with the poster who said it’s like a lottery. You pay a fee, you take your chances. Only instead of luck you get to rely on talent.
Sounds a little bit like the idea of holding a talent contest for singers. Sure there’s the “right” way. You sing in public, try to attract the attention of a manager. Try to do something that will land you a record deal. Hope that the record gets played on radios. Hope that the label picks you up again for a second record if you flop, etc, etc.
Or you stand in line for 2 days and hoped to get picked for American Idol.
Guaranteed money – with what many said was a shady contract deal that benefited the label rather than the artist. But who cares if you’re Kelly Clarkson how you got there or how “shady” the first deal was. She made it.
I keep hearing “scam” and “fraud” – but no one has yet to explain why a MAJOR reputable publisher would get into bed with these people. How much of a fraud can it be – if this is tied to S&S.
Steph
After having two agents read thirty pages of my book (and both of them rejecting it) I’m putting it to bed and starting with something new and fresh. I’ve been trying to move this piece of shit for two years, while concentrating on my short work to build up a reputation. It has been a long, exhaustive two years, and it makes me think that we’re all frigging nuts for trying to publish anything.
What will I do with the next book?
I’ll go back to querying agents(because after two years I’ve got that pretty much down pat) and going to writers’ conventions to learn all I can about publishing.
Will I ever pay eighty bucks to sign up for a contest?
No. I don’t want to win a contest that isn’t free to anyone who can swing a pen. I want to beat 50,000 writers, not a thousand desperate ones.
This sucks, there’s no doubt about it. By “this”, I mean writing and trying to make a name for oneself. It’s tiring and depressing and there seem to be too many assholes out there trying to take advantage of the poor saps doing it (bogus agents, bogus contests, print on demand types). And yet, with all the shit we wade through, I love it. Does it make me a sick person? You bet. It makes me a writer, because with all this nonsense I still enjoy writing.
S.
Wow. I gotta’ tell you, I have a lot of faith in my work, but I have to be honest with myself… could it really earn out a hundred thousand dollars?? So I win all this money, pay taxes on it, and maybe have to give it back? Pass.
And for those of you that think this contest is a good idea – and I’m not saying it’s not, just that forewarned is fore-armed – take a good long look at the “writer’s agreement” Sobol wants you to sign on entry. It contains those pesky words “in perpetuity” and my personal quaking-in-my-boots phrase “shall be binding upon your heirs”.
yyyyeahhh, I think I’ll stick to the whole querying and conference schmoozing plan.
Like others, I would pay $85 to get an honest crit of a full length MS. Lemme explain why: my last agent submission (invited to query by the agent) resulted in this agent marking up two (yes, only two) pages of my MS with her “grammar and usage glossary” attached. She didn’t comment on the synopsis of the entire story. She didn’t sign me. She didn’t really offer anything except to nitpick commas.
She did the same thing to my crit partner, who is a much better writer than I am, and didn’t deserve it.
And now I get to start all over again, with an agent who may give my work even less of a chance.
How do I make out the check?
It’s not the $85, It’s not the contest, it’s the “You HAVE to have Sobol agent you” FOREVER! Sure Clarkston got known, and is doing well, but that contract was just for one year, not forever. If you are tied with one agent always, no if and or buts, where is your freedom? Who’s to say they won’t sky rocket their fee? How hard will they try to get you the best deal? What deals do thay have on the board NOW? Nada from what I can see. I’d pay the $85 for a really un-biased knowledgable read of my ms, and a good hook for an agent for same, but don’t expect me to sign with one agent, without knowing a thing about them, forever!
(No blog, guess I’m Anon!
cm allison)
Anonymous7:42 has made some valid points. I do not think there’s an agents conspiracy, but the librarians as readers for the Sobol Award having fresh eyes and hearts and not “trained” to look for something different in the same mold as everyone else, is a great idea. And S&S isn’t so stupid.
The Golden Heart is $50 and I’ve met some of their judges-and oh how I wish they were librarians.
The concept of publishers coming up with new agentless ways of finding authors has got to stick in their collective craw.
It’s called an unsolicited submission. Writers have been selling that way for years, no $85 entry fee required, no agents worried this is going to threaten their client lists.
I’ve been trying to move this piece of shit for two years, while concentrating on my short work to build up a reputation. It has been a long, exhaustive two years, and it makes me think that we’re all frigging nuts for trying to publish anything.
If you’ve only been at it for two years, you’re barely getting started.
My first thought with a contest of this ilk when a “real” publishing contract is involved is that there must be a ringer.